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Thread: 2020 Supercars silly season. Caution, may contain heart break.

  1. #261
    7753 - 5030 HSE2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prydey View Post
    Ian, I'm not comparing the size of our appendages.

    Explain how this is different to drivers swapping teams in the past. All you have done is say that this will hurt TR and Chaz has access to IP. That is not in question.

    Engineers should be shown the door. That precedent has been set. Drivers see out their contracts. That precedent has also been set. Drivers are professional enough to honour their contract to the end.

    There is no precedent and nothing that’s worth respecting or observing conditions dependant. You continue to offer comment, critique people as children when you have zero basis of knowledge. You sit in the bleaches and throw stones.

    You answer your own questions.

    So if engineers should be sat out because of damage potential it stands to reason ANY employee who has that potential should be treated the same. Being a driver is not an excuse especially when the driver in question can influence sponsors. Are you seriously that much of a child? Are you so immune to the businesses would you are as clueless as a 5 year old.

    You see I take a dim account of people throwing around that sort of notion when their own logic does not rise above grade 3.

    Drivers are employees. They are no more entitled to take their position as anyone else with in the organisation if by doing so it places them in a position to harm that organisation.

    Chaz is one driver who can do that.

    If your saying the drivers should not wait till season end to find new employers then it stands to reason employers shouldn’t be forced to either. Why should Tickford now not look towards 2020 with the sponsors permission?

    Tickfords number 1 priority now is to retain supercheap. Thinking you have a solution or package in the ready is no substitute to checking what you have now. Tickford owe Chaz nothing. Owe the sport nothing, owe the fans nothing.

    They answer to sponsors. Unless a drivers contract specifically states he must be in the car, Tickford are within their rights to sit Chaz at home for the remainder of the season because as you acknowledge, sitting Adam out is sound practice but you need to answer to supercheap. How do you then go to them and explain due to sitting Adam out we have weakened your promotion. The only way out of that would be to convince supercheap that in order to go 100% with car 55 they need a new face and look to build in these 6 months to get a start on 2020.


    This isn’t an action you take likely. This isn’t the domain of children. This is big boy pants stuff and you get an appreciation for it by getting into the teams and see it. Having it explained to you.

    There is a reasons why Chaz wasn’t allowed to drive the homolagation mustang. Tickford drivers weren’t allowed. It’s because drivers can hurt you. Penske didnt want that and Tickford respected that.

    This is a situation specific to Tickford so no matter what precedent you think there is, none rise to the level of value and sponsor implications moving forward. The timing of this could not be worse for Tickford so they should act and be accepted as acting responsibly for their concerns going forward.

    By all means send Chaz off with a tribute livery and many thanks. It’s not personal. It’s business. Now Tickford has to get on with it and that doesn’t include handing over tested IP to WAU and it doesn’t include backing themselves into a corner driver and engineer wise.

    They may need this last half of the seasons to test a new driver and engineer combination to work out if they need to head hunt specific talents because at the end of the day it more than just a perception. Data supports Chaz and Adam as being the leaders in car direction and development. It’s a huge loss.

    The best way to fight that perception is to publicly demonstrate they have a solution.

    What the team can do or would like to do is what the sponsorship allows and wants.
    If supercheap are committed to Tickford going forward I can see them wanting to distance themselves from a driver who is going to become negative and consumed with his decision and what’s to come. That’s not great value for money.

    Get young Tim Randle in the car, look to the future just as Chaz has done. Drivers should not be immune from the exact considerations they have used for themselves but it has to be real.

    A real risk and damage assessment needs to conclude this. Not spite, not anything else.

    The fact remains removing Adam hurts Chaz. That is a sponsorship issue straight up. You basically have to take Chaz as well, I would actually release him myself. I would allow him to go race with Ryan right now. I would sit Adam out his contract.

    You just get on with it. There is no place for children in this game.
    History is a statement, the future is a question.

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  3. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4Vman View Post
    The vast majority of driver movement in the past has either been by mutual departure post season or at worst Teams deciding to let a driver go (not offer a new contract).

    Where a team elects not to renew a contract that normally happens after the season, no IP is compromised, nor is the inner harmony of the team.

    Its one of the reasons contracts run Calendar year, there's plenty of time post last race to sort things out before Dec 31st..

    It's rare for a Team to lose a key driver they are trying hard to keep.

    Frosty did it last year, the worst example was SVG's conduct with SBR.

    In contrast Scott's departure from GRM was with Garys blessing AND encouragement, Gary knew full well Scott needed to go to further his career.

    This situation is completely different.

    It's the worst case scenario, losing a key driver before the season is over.

    It's like your girlfriend breaking up with you, but she hasn't moved out yet, and you have to attend events together pretending everything fine.
    Norm a big part of what makes this different comes down to years of Tickford being proud of what these two do for the team car direction wise.

    They are now forced into walking back previous statements.
    Let’s say Tickford as a franchise is worth 10 million. Losing the combination championed as their saviour brings that value back to 4 million.

    They will say now they are more than just 2 people. Rightly so but that’s not how Tickford has been seen or credited.

    It’s fan perception, it’s a sponsor perception. Surely any organisation has the right to work with chief financial supporters to develop a path forward that works for them.

    Are we seriously suggesting Tickford should not have the right to present to supercheap a solution for season 2020.

    Chaz has made his call. He is no longer part of that picture.

    Explain to me why Tickford can’t present an alternative to work with supercheap right now. A new star from which you move forward with.

    That’s the precedent that actually needs to be recognised. Drivers aren’t the team. They aren’t the ones who answer to sponsors in a financial way.

    Do I think it’s likely Chaz would be sat out? No but I think he will be isolated and that has serious implications for a sponsor you are trying to retain. That very fact may mean they are forced into retain the pair with no guarantee supercheap will return.


    There has to be protection for the people who make the sport possible.

    We are talking about Chaz denying he has signed a contract while under contract. Seriously. There is no defence for this. You can’t have it both ways.
    History is a statement, the future is a question.

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  5. #263
    Miami Sprint. 4Vman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HSE2 View Post
    Norm a big part of what makes this different comes down to years of Tickford being proud of what these two do for the team car direction wise.

    They are now forced into walking back previous statements.
    Let’s say Tickford as a franchise is worth 10 million. Losing the combination championed as their saviour brings that value back to 4 million.

    They will say now they are more than just 2 people. Rightly so but that’s not how Tickford has been seen or credited.

    It’s fan perception, it’s a sponsor perception. Surely any organisation has the right to work with chief financial supporters to develop a path forward that works for them.

    Are we seriously suggesting Tickford should not have the right to present to supercheap a solution for season 2020.

    Chaz has made his call. He is no longer part of that picture.

    Explain to me why Tickford can’t present an alternative to work with supercheap right now. A new star from which you move forward with.

    That’s the precedent that actually needs to be recognised. Drivers aren’t the team. They aren’t the ones who answer to sponsors in a financial way.

    Do I think it’s likely Chaz would be sat out? No but I think he will be isolated and that has serious implications for a sponsor you are trying to retain. That very fact may mean they are forced into retain the pair with no guarantee supercheap will return.


    There has to be protection for the people who make the sport possible.

    We are talking about Chaz denying he has signed a contract while under contract. Seriously. There is no defence for this. You can’t have it both ways.
    Agree completely on all counts.

    You know my feelings on how this should be handled, and i've expressed them here.

    Tickford now have to protect the castle and not be a door mat.

    100% Tim/Tickford need to switch totally over to 2020 mode and put everything possible in place NOW to facilitate that as quickly and smoothly as possible.

    Sponsor retention is a key part of that, as is protecting IP and replacing Chaz.

    Chaz and Adam (if he hasn't committed to 2020) are last to the feed trough.

    I'm not as convinced Chaz/Adam have helped the engineering direction of the whole team as much as you are.

    Its often stated Chaz/Adam have gone off on a wild tangent to the rest of the team, maybe that's in strategy only and not just setup?

    Either way i'm sure you've got more insight into this.

    I don't think people realize that Tickford's survival as an organisation is on the line here, Chaz leaving is more than just a driver defection.
    My Falcon family heritage: XY V8 Falcon 500, XYGT, XBGT, XC 351 GS, XD 4.1 Spack, EF wagon, AU Wagon, AU2 Wagon, AU2 XR8, BA XR8, BF XR8, FG XR6, Lucky last: Sprint 8. Oh wait, AU3 XLS Marlin Ute!

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  7. #264
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    Your last sentence, people read it and understand it.
    History is a statement, the future is a question.

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  9. #265
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    It's good to have more perspective and understand of the gravity of what's transpiring in front of us with regards to the unfolding Tickford situation.

    More often than not, an individual’s agenda at some point will conflict with what is in the best interests of the collective, or what some refer to 'the greater good'. As a close kit and passionate Ford community, we can sometimes assume that we are all team and manufacture first when it comes to motorsport. If this was the case our interests in preservation would lie in supporting actions that are in the best interests of the Ford Teams.

    Given what has unfolded here this serves to demonstrate my assumption about our community to be false. We have members that believe that what is in the best interests of some within those teams outweighs what is in the best interests of the collective. And these personal agenda's should be respected and accepted, regardless of the consequences to the teams themselves.

    I respect others opinions but I personally cannot subscribe to this. Its bullshit and entitled behavior. You either join a team and be 100% committed to their mission and cause, or you do the honorable thing and step out of it in the least harmful way possible. From what I’m seeing and hearing, this is not what’s happening with the unfolding Chaz and Tickford situation. I hope that I am proven wrong.
    Lifetime Ford Falcon enthusiast and previous owner of the following models XR, XY, XB, XC, XD, EB, AU, BA and FG.
    Current owner of a BA Mk2 FPV GT and a FG XR6 Turbo

    Mustang enthusiast and current owner of a 1969 Mach 1 351 4V 4-barrel M-Code + 2019 Mustang GT 10 speed

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  11. #266
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    SVG and then Steve Hallam left Tekno. Where is Tekno now? It's just part of motorsport. Unfortunately some teams just can't hang on to their staff for whatever reason. TR are one of them. I've never pretended to like them and always been open about my opinion of them. Being a ford fan does not mean I'm obliged to like all Ford teams. My love of Ford is not related to motorsport.

    When penske rocked up with his cheque book most people cheered because someone could finally go toe to toe with T8. Paul Morris addressed this in one of the shows he does with ingall. It's a slippery path because eventually you could find you have no-one to race against if the dollar becomes king. Now we have another well funded backer starting to open his wallet and its hard to compete with.

    The question I ask is, given how successful the mustang is, and was always going to be, why are high profile drivers leaving the team, and not just leaving but going to teams where success isn't guaranteed. That is the big question.

    As for Chaz, whether it's ethically or morally right from the teams point of view doesn't mean he can't look for a drive elsewhere considering he is off contract. If he hasn't breached the terms of his current contract then he's done nothing wrong. If it impacts negatively on the teams financial position or value, that's just collateral damage. If Chaz and deborre are worth that much to the team, then pay them accordingly, and we don't have this conversation.

    It is what it is. Money will always win.
    SZ TS DIESEL RWD

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  13. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by WASP View Post
    It's good to have more perspective and understand of the gravity of what's transpiring in front of us with regards to the unfolding Tickford situation.

    More often than not, an individual’s agenda at some point will conflict with what is in the best interests of the collective, or what some refer to 'the greater good'. As a close kit and passionate Ford community, we can sometimes assume that we are all team and manufacture first when it comes to motorsport. If this was the case our interests in preservation would lie in supporting actions that are in the best interests of the Ford Teams.

    Given what has unfolded here this serves to demonstrate my assumption about our community to be false. We have members that believe that what is in the best interests of some within those teams outweighs what is in the best interests of the collective. And these personal agenda's should be respected and accepted, regardless of the consequences to the teams themselves.

    I respect others opinions but I personally cannot subscribe to this. Its bullshit and entitled behavior. You either join a team and be 100% committed to their mission and cause, or you do the honorable thing and step out of it in the least harmful way possible. From what I’m seeing and hearing, this is not what’s happening with the unfolding Chaz and Tickford situation. I hope that I am proven wrong.
    I cant echo your sentiments enough about "Team First" and being selfless in team sports.

    Having played, coached and been around successful (and un successful) "Teams" all my life i can honestly say individual selfishness and conflicting agendas were the number 1 hindrance to success.

    No single individual is more important than the Team.
    My Falcon family heritage: XY V8 Falcon 500, XYGT, XBGT, XC 351 GS, XD 4.1 Spack, EF wagon, AU Wagon, AU2 Wagon, AU2 XR8, BA XR8, BF XR8, FG XR6, Lucky last: Sprint 8. Oh wait, AU3 XLS Marlin Ute!

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  15. #268
    Validated User galaxy xr8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4Vman View Post
    It's like your girlfriend breaking up with you, but she hasn't moved out yet, and you have to attend events together pretending everything fine.
    Please Norm don't go using a hypothetical like that, you'll just be accused of drawing a long bow !!!.

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  17. #269
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    Sup fuckerz ... ???
    Thank you Ford for the memories

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  19. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by prydey View Post
    SVG and then Steve Hallam left Tekno. Where is Tekno now? It's just part of motorsport. Unfortunately some teams just can't hang on to their staff for whatever reason. TR are one of them. I've never pretended to like them and always been open about my opinion of them. Being a ford fan does not mean I'm obliged to like all Ford teams. My love of Ford is not related to motorsport.

    When penske rocked up with his cheque book most people cheered because someone could finally go toe to toe with T8. Paul Morris addressed this in one of the shows he does with ingall. It's a slippery path because eventually you could find you have no-one to race against if the dollar becomes king. Now we have another well funded backer starting to open his wallet and its hard to compete with.

    The question I ask is, given how successful the mustang is, and was always going to be, why are high profile drivers leaving the team, and not just leaving but going to teams where success isn't guaranteed. That is the big question.

    As for Chaz, whether it's ethically or morally right from the teams point of view doesn't mean he can't look for a drive elsewhere considering he is off contract. If he hasn't breached the terms of his current contract then he's done nothing wrong. If it impacts negatively on the teams financial position or value, that's just collateral damage. If Chaz and deborre are worth that much to the team, then pay them accordingly, and we don't have this conversation.

    It is what it is. Money will always win.
    Be you like Tickford or not, that’s not the issue. You have traditionally sided with drivers, I have traditionally sided with teams.

    Teams come first Rob. They pay employees. Employees do what they are paid to do and when they seek a different place of employment, just as there is expectations for them, equally so has there to be on the employers side.

    It’s naive to write something off as collateral damage.

    I am going to walk out to your car with a sledge hammer. I am going to tell you I am going to hit it. Are you just going to stand by and do nothing?

    What you are saying is ridiculous. Teams should just take it?

    Teams have a responsibility to all employees not just drivers. If a driver wants to move, fantastic, wish him well and off he goes. Should a team be obligated to just go through the motions, with other people’s money I might add, that’s absurd.

    Just release him from his contract. Off you go, best of luck. That’s what happens in the real world.

    The question you have.

    Frosty left for T8 equipment. He would have known how good mustang was but probably didn’t know what losing the trap spring meant for T8. His move would have looked better had that not occurred.

    Mark is at the end of his career. Like all athletes their sense of worth might not reflect what the market says he is worth.

    I know you like talking but what about observing? Mark has effectively told you why he left. Its in his comments and the lines aren’t really that small you can miss it.

    In many ways it seems to point towards the Chaz situation. It sounds like he resented the roll Chaz played with Adam, that he had lost his way in team as the focus. You know, all his comments about being in a single team where all eyes are on him?

    Knowing you have a fight to retain Chaz 12 months on, you being a smart man, given you say it’s about money, try to put your anti Tickford bias aside and think as a rational person, would you pay marks ask or put that towards trying to keep Chaz?

    Now Chaz is very different. Different stage of his career and I would dispute he is actually leaving for a lower team given who owns WAU which in itself for a young driver those international opportunities are something local ownership can’t provide. His age, his desirability to other teams is on a completely different level, but yet people like you want to put that on the Tickford side as something they have done wrong.

    In one breath you suggest a team shouldn’t be allowed the same opportunities as drivers but then when they can’t act it’s on them for not being able to fight for attraction.

    WAU in theory have more budget, more dedicated resources, its just a matter of how serious they want to get. This in no way reflects on Tickford. That’s the reality of having multinationals in the sport.

    But to the point, you cite teckno and say it is the way, it just should be accepted.

    I repeat. If you see an accident coming do you do nothing???

    Everyone and I mean everyone who follows sport. Regardless of some stuffed up logic associated with love or hate of a team, regardless of colour or fan favourite, what’s best for the team must, without question, be put ahead of that of any individual and yes that means drivers. That team has to survive. 60 people trust management to do the responsible thing at all times and the reality of that is to limit harm in the competing environment of competition both on and off the track.

    As I have explained. If Adam and Chaz were going to Penske or T8 there would be very little reason to explore damage limitation. WAU is something different altogether. They want what Tickford have. You make that as hard as you can because basically fuck Ryan. No one exists to make his job easier.

    If that means isolating Chaz, it harms the sponsors. YOU MUST work with them at all times. What they want is what you do.

    If supercheap don’t want the negativity of Chaz constantly answering questions about his move at supercheap functions, guess what happens.

    In life, there are consequences for your actions and choices. It’s not always about you and what you want. In business there are greater concerns and it’s about time people realise this.

    Do I think Chaz could be stood down and released from his contract. Maybe. I think it’s unlikely simply because Richie set the bar really low.

    Do I think Chaz will be isolated? Yes. It’s very very likely all the pending developments are conceptually the work of both Chaz and Adam. There would be a net gain in not allowing them the opportunity to test. Testing saves time and money they take to WAU. A consequence of that is your best effort doesn’t go into car 55. Off to supercheap you go. Realising Chaz allows you 6 months to mount a campaign to convince supercheap you have an option. Oh I know you would just roll over and die because you think it’s the way of the world.


    How about we do something really crazy. We recognise that for the sport to survive somethings are bigger than drivers, it shouldn’t just be drivers who get to decide what’s best for them but equally teams should have the right to move away from employees and do what’s best for them. Let’s call that the cost of doing business.

    Pay him out, move towards 2020 with team mates who aren’t distracted and fully invested in a harmonious future. There is no downside other then perhaps the teams championship. There is no point cutting off your nose despite your face. That’s something that needs to be weighted up. The reality there is the second team probably gets you same pit spot anyway.
    History is a statement, the future is a question.

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